The Other Side of Cost Segregation with Michael Plaks

Full Transcript

Taylor   0:02  

Thanks for tuning in Welcome to the passive wealth strategies for busy professionals podcast. Today our guest is Michael Plaks. Today we're talking about cost segregation or the other side of cost segregation. Michael is a CPA. He is the black belt in real estate investing taxes. He describes it as he describes his experience for us. In the interview, I got in touch with Michael because of a very interesting post that he put on bigger pockets. If you're not familiar with bigger pockets, it is the biggest online forum for real estate investing, full stop.

If you want to be a real estate investor, or you are a real estate investor and you're not on BiggerPockets, get on bigger pockets, it's free, and a lot of great information on there. But he made a post on bigger pockets about a client of his who had a call center study done and did not get the results that he felt He was promised to buy that cost segregation person.

Michael and I talked about that today. I think this is very important because we've talked about costs on the show before. I like cost segregation, right. But I want to make sure that we're bringing the other side all topics to use so that you can be informed, you can find the right people to get on your team, and you can make your own decisions because we need to understand, we need to understand everything that we're doing.

This is a critical, other side of a big topic that's being talked about right now. like I said, we've had cosmetic experts on the show before, this is not about them. This is our responsibility as investors as clients of cost segregation, companies to really understand the value to us that they offer or how to determine that value, and double check their work in a certain way and know whether we're working with somebody who's been Being straightforward and honest with us, or somebody who's maybe overselling it a little bit, if that makes sense. I'm fascinated by this discussion. Like I said, I saw his posts on BiggerPockets. It really blew up.

there's a link in the show notes, if you want to read that post, but definitely listen to this discussion. see if you can log it in your mind. Remember it in the future, the next time you're considering a cost egg study, really understand the steps you need to go through to determine whether it's valuable to you or not, in the same way that it's being kind of told to you that it's valuable to you. I'm your host Taylor load. I'm a real estate investor, real estate syndicator.

I buy real estate with passive investors and split the return. We've done cost segregation studies on some of my properties in the past, and I love talking about this topic and really having the best knowledge available to us on this topic. Thanks for tuning in. Without any further ado, here we go with Michael blacks. Michael Thank you for joining us today.

Michael Plaks  3:01  

Thanks for inviting me, Taylor.

Taylor   3:03  

I'll explain this in the introduction. But for the purposes of our conversation here, I originally reached out to you because of a thread that you posted on bigger pockets, about the other side of cost segregation. I thought that would be a very interesting topic to present to our listeners.

We've talked about cost segregation on the show before. But as you point out, that there's this other side, it doesn't necessarily benefit everybody the way it's kind of sold to us. I think it's fascinating. We'll get into that shortly. But for everybody out there who doesn't know about you, can you tell us about what you do in your business and your qualifications to talk about this topic?

Michael Plaks  3:45  

Okay, my qualification is very simple. It's okay. I'm a black belt in real estate taxation. That's what I go by. Okay. I'm an accountant. I run a firm for 20 years stocks for working exclusively Real estate investors. as you mentioned bigger pockets is,   I'm like, fairly well known on bigger pockets and then not online communities. that's

Taylor   4:11  

the short story 20 years of doing toxic exclusively for real estate investors. I love it to be a perfect fit for our topic and our audience today. And,   can you tell us about this situation with your client with regards to this tax, this cost segregation so we can learn about this case and then get to the broader point of what you're trying to make about, maybe cost segregation is not as great as we're being told.

Michael Plaks  4:39  

Well, the situation is

very simple and very common is I have a client and that client or their cost segregation, and it was sold to him as something with huge benefits. It's going to wipe out his huge IRS tax bill. Of course Uncle Sam is standing around me waiting to participate in our discussion. That's why I wear red gloves like people who don't know me haven't seen my log on the wall game. Punching came out.

Anyway, Uncle Sam is here and the promise was okay here you get your course said you will not owe anything to Uncle Sam because you have 600 grand in deductions from cost segregation in tax savings, actually the way it was sold in quote unquote tax sales. when we finished the job, it was less than 10% of what was promised.

It was still significant savings, nobody will walk out on 35 grand of tax savings now because not 600 and glide wasn't creepy. what I posted on bigger pockets and on Facebook and other places I analyze that case trying to show how it was sold and why it was extremely misleading. On the go, the concept itself is very good. Like I'm not bashing cost segregation as a concept.   I'm all for it,   we do. He commanded our clients.

He and we do hire good people like Yana Who? Yana Weiss, who was one of your guests,   so, yeah, there are very good cost segregation people, we gladly refer business to them, but we want our clients don't understand what they are buying first.  II and here is my analogy, basically. imagine, like I offer you tailor, like some great car accelerator, and I show you all of these things like look how fast you can go, but if you are in traffic and seat and what happened is like you're gonna raise it. then you are still behind that grandmother in her Buick. you're and you're not any closer to where you want to be not any faster.

But you paid for that great accelerator, you create a lot of noise. a load of extra guests, and you're arriving at the same time as anybody else. I want to, like a little bit explain the big picture because like you said the other side, here is why the other side goes subrogation people, but I do use the report. But we're accountants are implementing that. we want to see like, what actually happens once you get that. should we talk a little about it?

Taylor   7:28  

Yeah, absolutely. First,   before we move on, I want to make sure we know why the report originally showed 600 grand and cost savings or tax savings. then in reality, he ended up getting 35,000 35,000 great, but if you already think in 600,   it's a pretty big cut.  I want to make sure we cut we hit that before he you know get a little

Michael Plaks  7:52  

more Absolutely.  In this particular case, almost all cases were nothing but very shrady representation by the state. salesperson which I broke out on my bigger pockets cost. what happened there is what they billed as cost segregation savings were no cost segregation savings. The table showed how much depreciation you can take off before and after. actually, forgive me even though we promised to go into example, let me just stop it for a second then in case somebody who is listening to us doesn't have an idea about what cost segregation is.

The Simple Stories when it comes to vacation is normally you have a slow depreciation and you get a little bit of that. What cost segregation does is it finds a way to depreciate pieces of that property much faster. When you're looking at their analysis that cost segregation forums give you they will give you a table that shows this is before this is after, and you're comparing that before and off. before we chose these two depreciation you could take before and look at this, this is all this great depreciation that you can take now, and here is the difference. the difference is the key word.

you before, you could take 10,000 in depreciation, and now you can take 15. Your differences by your savings are from extra by Grant. But what the poor showed first is they apply that to the 15 to the whole amount, which is misleading, because you could take advantage of 10,000 before. Well, again, let's not, let's not be bogged down to the numbers. It could be like before it was 5000. Now it's 15 or before it was five.

Now it's 25. Point, whatever, whatever those numbers are, if we're talking about savings, we need to apply savings to the difference. That's the number. That's issue number one. That's number number two, relatively minor.

What is the rate? The rate that was used on the report was 40%. that depends on two things that depend where you are, where your income is, what is your tax bracket and what state you are, like my client happened to be in Florida, no state income tax rate. his actual rate is 24%. there is a big difference if you calculate it, based on 40% on 24. up to here, it sounds like okay, those are sort of mild music presentations.

The biggest one, however, was that when they calculate at 600, what they looked at is the whole table, and the whole table takes 30 years. over 30 years, the entire depreciation you could take would be worth 600.

Guess what? If you don't do cost segregation, how much benefit do you get over 30 years? That's fair. 600 you're not getting and that's what people do not understand about cost segregation. Now, yes, I know that the next conversation will be nobody holds the property for 30 years, right? We're not talking about that. But what is happening, you take the same depreciation that normally you would take over 30 years, and you just make it much faster.

you'll front blow the first couple of years, the first five years state most of that, and it's most visible in the first two years as a matter of fact. you take all of that early, but you still end up taking the same amount.   it's like,   you gotta it's like right now in the current team,   we bought those two bags of snacks for the entire week. An hour later, it's gone. It's empty. Yeah, that's, that's what is happening right now.

You eat from the same bag. You don't get two bags. It's the same bag. You just stick to everything right now.

Taylor   12:00  

I love that analogy.

Michael Plaks  12:01  

Yeah, that's what happening right there is what's happening and that's what was not explained. what that 603 presented is lifetime depreciation on the coating Anthony inflated the rate without considering the difference between the two. I don't often like if you go to a reputable good company, they won't fool that crap on you. You know like I, I honestly believe this was just a very, like, questionable to say politely way to sell cost segregation to my client. He and   again, a good game just sold with me as a presentation and a lot of hype surrounding that.

I always prefer to be upfront with one with my clients you know when we start working with clients and whatever we need. qualification calls and discuss what we can do for you. I've always been very up front. I like when people are doing the same,   when I'm saying, hey, look, that's what you expect, you know what? That is not possible. Like your expectation is to accomplish that. No, we can go these we can do this part for you, that part will not create a page. if now is a good time we can talk about, like that concept in general.

Taylor   13:22  

Perfect. forth.

Michael Plaks  13:25  

Continue. Okay, then yeah, the whole concept and what I want to put it in, I want to put our conversation in the context and context specifically talking about syndications. Because like most of the people who are listening to us right now are in syndications as passive investors or syndicators. for in that specific context, anxiety would be different. when we first started, so why they're different, like what is different there. if I'm applying cost segregation to a property that I own hundred percent myself, I own this multifamily property, like paid a million for that cost segregate at that. I get like half of that depreciated over a few years, and then I'm selling that. Well if I'm just selling that I could have an issue of recapturing depreciation.

But if I own that property myself, what I can do is I can do a 1031 exchange. let's look at numbers again. I said I bought that property for a million depreciated half of that with the help of course, segregation. I get like half million worth of deductions,   up until now, so I only have half million in this property. right now it appreciates that a lot. I can sell it for 2 million. what would be is I will have two things. I would normally have capital gain on their appreciation from million to two million loss, I would have to recapture a half million worth of depreciation benefits. But right now, if I own that I can say, you know what, I don't really care that much.

I can do a 1031 exchange into 2 million bigger properties. all of that will be just rolled into the new products. I will not have any immediate at the war stocks heed. Uncle Sam is standing behind their like parents and saying because I don't like that, of course he doesn't like it because he doesn't get to talk to me today on that. It turns into the new property. Then from that property, I can turn 31 into something else and continue going it for my lifetime.   and then finally, when I go it goes to my kids, and that all of that all depreciation, games, all of that gets wiped out. That's a pretty good game. But the problem when we talk about syndication games is not possible. There are two points that are possible. Well, the property goes up in value and we sell it even if it's a syndication and I can die. okay, those two parts are still there.

What we are missing is that 1031 exchange, because if you're trying to do a 1031 exchange, only the syndication itself can do it. That means every partner in your group, you will have to agree that instead of cash and ground and reinvesting into something else, we as a group are buying a new property. Yes, if you have a group of friends who are continuously investing together, that would work but in standard syndications as you get in yourself cash out, you're gone. You cannot do 1031. We have a lot of those equations when in investment saying Okay, my syndication sold the property so I get a huge payout. Can I turn 31? No, you can't.

You cannot do that. That's important on the stand because when the syndication sells the property in normal syndication lifetime is anywhere like,   between three to seven years, so let's say five years is an average. five years later your syndicator will sell the property and you will have to recapture that capital gain. again back to my example, if it was

10 million property that you depreciate it like 4 million out of that. Again, my example: you could easily buy it for 10 million depreciated 4 million, I'm selling it for 15. At that point, not only the syndication will pay taxes on capital gain from 10 to 15. But we'll also have to pay depreciation recapture tax, which is higher than capital gains tax up to 25% on that 4 million, and their syndication does not pay that as education VB net active partners. what happens is the first four years of that syndication I'm an active partner getting a very nice attractive k one that shows losses and I'm happy.

  I'm like all normal passive investors. I don't want to pay any extra dime to his guy who is changing. Right?   he's, he won't say anything good that will give him nothing.

I'm creepy, but you're number five when we sell, he will patiently stand behind me and wait. then year five, he will get your share. That's what is important on this stand. that creates an equation like,   do you want us to talk about it, basically. what's the point? Okay, again, cost segregation and syndications.

Taylor   18:45  

Absolutely. I mean, I think that's the next logical question. what is the point and what in your opinion is like the best strategy that as passive investors we should pursue?

Michael Plaks  18:59  

Well, it's Basically investors, we don't get to vote

most of the time, because really the decision is made by syndicate. what happens with cost segregation most of the time is like passive investors are basically in the forum by whatever you call it the syndicator with a lead partner, you know what, whatever name you use for the guy who runs the show, he goes and gets go segregation, explain to his investors all of these benefits. But most of the time, they do not explain the end situation, the exit point, that exit point that cost segregation essentially comes back if you have to return your benefits.

Why are we doing that? So first, plain and simple, it may not look, it may not sound very nice, but the best benefit of that is, it makes this indicator look good. Because, think about that if you are bringing into your syndicate Duane T hi, hi, ER nurse who are looking for Doc's beneficial use of their money. Like, let's say doctors, you know your doctors, dentists, engineers, like all of those high w two or high personal income people. you're telling them look, we are going to get that passive property. You don't have to do anything except to invest. imagine if you have to tell them, but well, there will be a little bit of extra tax every year. A lot of these people will tell no thanks.

What I'm looking for is tax shelter. Okay, so these are sheltering my taxes and it was like Yeah, yeah, all of those benefits again, I don't like misleading representation that is misleading representation. Because here is what has happened. If you get that cable with the loss in that You are a passive investor and seen as a game as an example, okay, so you are a doctor. Okay, so you are getting like 300 salary as your W two.

you get this investment and you get some passive investment in an apartment complex and you get that format that shows a loss. Don't expect that that loss will reduce your tax, like I would like syndicators to be very upfront with their passive investors saying it's not going to happen. It's not going to reduce them only because you have 300 income from w two, the passive losses that come through that k one form from the syndication is not going to make a dent on your income tax bill for that year. Now, if it was a positive number, then it then your tax goes up. Nobody wants that. But if it's zero or below, it just keeps you at your W two tax, but does not put it lower. Why? Because there are rules called passive activity limits. tations so those rules prevent you from taking those deductions even so you have the loss.

But you cannot take that it all goes into the future. Yes, it will all even out in that year of saying, Yes, eventually, it will be usable, but not during the years that you invest, knowing that the more sophisticated syndicators then people who are more experienced and more upfront with their investors, all they want to do is drop that income to zero.

Because as long as your net income after all expenses, so you take your rents from your apartment complex or a commercial building, whatever that is, and you subtract all your operating costs, and you subtract depreciation, if you are already at zero, after all of that. You really don't need cost segregation at that point. Hmm. Because if your income is already zero Then when you distribute k ones, as long as they show zero, there is no difference for your investors, even if you push it down to negative, so you can put cost segregation and put it from zero G into the negative.

now your K one looks good. Those doctors received a once with huge negative numbers, but they cannot benefit from that. we are creating. if you need to use cost segregation to push it down to zero, then it's good. Now, it depends what kind of passive investors you have. That's when it gets tricky, because some of the passive investors might be able to use an example of let's say they have other key ones.

Those capons skip positive numbers from whatever, let's say then oil and gas and have some good k one positive distributions, they could very well use negative k one numbers from that CNT K. But not everybody's in that situation. when you initially get your investors on the board and talk about that, it's good to understand what their needs are tax wise, that their expectations are good because for some people, it can be very, very helpful and for others, others is like your bread and butter situation is if all they have is W two, no negative k one doesn't really help them. If they have other sources to upset Yes.

Taylor   24:32  

So does it benefit the passive investor who cannot use the negative number against their w two? does it benefit them to carry that loss forward to the sale of the property or considering their depreciation recapture tax? Is that ultimately just turning it into is it just bumping up the tax rate from capital gains up a little bit

Michael Plaks  25:00  

First of oversimplify that, it won't benefit them so to speak. Because what you have is you have a big loss right now, which later turns into a big gain and sort of becomes a wash does not exactly become a wash. let's discuss what it could be. benefit number one, it could be that some passive investors can benefit from those losses today, again, depending on their situation, some can, that's number one. Number two, those who cannot benefit. What they have is they possibly have a little bit of difference in the rate.

Now that gets highly complicated, very technical discussion, like I don't want to,   bore people with my trade right now. But basically what can happen is, you can take a deduction again, Your ordinary rate, and that deduction could be let's say, 32% rate.

then when you recapture if it's capped at 25, so here you get like 7% differential in your rate. you can play on that a little bit. Now, if you get those deductions now you get the time value of money. for five years, you are sitting on that cash that you say that he provided that it can benefit you. even though later, five years down the road, you'll have to repay, but you had the use of that money for five years.

That matters if it's if it's significant, a significant chunk of money. it's not useless, like I'm saying, so number one is if you're if your syndication has a positive number, positive net income using normal depreciation, Then you definitely want to use cost segregation to drop it to zero. That is like, primary benefit. you don't have an increase in taxes until the year of sale. But even if you're raising zero, it still can benefit.

Like I said, again, to recap, in those situations, it can benefit some partners in some situations, it can, if you take that pay the time value of money, and you have a little bit of benefit on the rate differential. If your situation is applicable, like challenges that,   in syndication, even if you have 10 people, it's almost guaranteed that the interests of the 10 people would be different. Tax situations will be different. It's very hard to find 10 people on the same page and saying, Oh, absolutely none of us cares about extra deductions. Because all we have is just w two possible but not not very common. Usually there will be at least one guy.

Often it's the syndicator himself, saying yes, but I can use that. For me, it's the fee issue. that makes the decision. Again, I'm not saying do it don't do it, I'm saying it, when you do it, I prefer very balanced disclosure, which not only tells you the benefits, but only tells you those benefits may not be applicable in your particular case.

Taylor   28:36  

I think it's a great point. And,   it's important that we understand and go into these things clear headed, and that's why I wanted to have a conversation today. Now regarding these losses, I want to also want to ask for a passive investor who files or is able to file as a real estate professional. Are they able to say As a doctor and their spouse is a realtor or whatever, so that way they meet the requirements to file as a real estate professional, are they able to use those passive losses against their joint income?

Michael Plaks  29:14  

In my introduction, I said that I'm the black belt in real estate taxation. But I'm still an accountant.   Even when you talk to an accountant,   there is one answer to every question you ask. Yeah. Do you know what that answer is?

Exactly, exactly.

Got it. Yeah, that's, that's the correct answer to any question, you ask an account. Okay. Except one. Like if you ask for an account, like, do I have to pay your bill now? The answer is yes. I never say I never say depends, I think yes, you have. Okay. All other questions. It depends. it depends on your situation.

You brought up a very tricky issue that you Really is getting too technical. But basically, the answer is a conditional year. If you can qualify as a real estate professional, under some situations, you might be able to do that.

But that's not a no brainer. Because in order to accomplish that, what you would have to do is make an election to aggregate all your real estate activities into one. There is a special election. it kind of sounds like what the heck he is talking about, like if you don't know those details,   that's a common Geez, that's not very clear. But all I want to say about that election that every blog out there says, Yeah, absolutely.

That's what you have to do. That's not that bottomless. It's not completely harmless. It has a negative side to that so that the election can backfire on you. under the right circumstances, if you have a real estate professional If you make that election and that election is helpful to you, the announcer is yes. But in some of those situations, we'll look at that and advise our clients to not make that election even if it's available.

Because it can, it can have negative effects, not just not just positive,   it's like one of those things. I'm saying So, is it good or is it bad? You know what it reminds me like any nutritional advice? I'm saying, Yeah, what I like,   fat is bad for you. then they're like entire diets based on fat, like the primary thing or solve dissolvable for you and Oh, so this NASA setting for you? So depends which you believe.

Do you wish you were saying it's good for you or it's bad for you? So to me it is kind of accounting like tax planning strategies are the same way. They're excellent for some people and not so much for others. That's why people like me exist. Yeah.

Taylor   32:02  

Nice. Interesting. Well, I appreciate that right now we're gonna take a quick break for our sponsor. Michael, I have three questions I asked every guest on the show.

Michael Plaks  32:13  

Are you ready? Okay. I did not prepare, sir. like, it was like a presidential debate when they gave me the equations in advance. So

Taylor   32:23  

These aren't gotcha questions. I'm sorry.

Michael Plaks  32:26  

Okay. I will say he depends.

Taylor   32:33  

That might be a little weasley, we might not, we might not like that answer. These are subjective anyway, it's about you. Okay, go for it. First one, what is the best investment you ever made other than in your education?

Michael Plaks  32:47  

The best investment that I made, other than my education. The best investment I made was actually in Apple stock. oh nine Many years ago, and that was preaching, well, it does not have a good well that story has a bad ending it has good start but bad ending is like a good start was that I bought it at a great price before and then like the next year one of those one of those oil guys from one of their countries there bought Apple stock and I was eating and that famous investors bought it for $2 more than I bought it. The problem is he still holds it and I had to sell it at some point. I regret it. I don't do that anymore. But   I wish I did.

Taylor   33:40  

Wow. Well, if you still made money on it, then that's a good thing. Yeah. On the other side of that we had the best investment. What is the worst investment you ever made?

Michael Plaks  33:52  

Worst investment I ever made. Excellent question. Well, the same one because I sold it. I would use the same example because they're famous,   when you ask Warren Buffett what is, you know what his favorite holding period was? He said forever? And if I actually would use that question, instead of talking about my personal life I want to share a story of my close friend of mine if you'll let me because I think that that's very helpful rather than talking about my own mistakes.

Okay, this story was that I have this friend and behind him was a framed picture of a house like in his office and I asked what that's like, why like what is their story? Okay? Oh, it used to be my house and things so why like is why do you have a frame and behind you? He says, Here is why I bought this house and he gave me a year. Like I said that the year was like let's say it was 1965 whatever, like Ducky or was like an older guy, you know in Kansas, okay, so I bought it in new And I paid I don't remember numbers I would lie to you.

If I told you about, let's say 400 400 k back then. then 20 years later I sold it for 400 K. Look, they're in small print and when kids are like in that frame, it wasn't just a picture it was a listing from MLS and let's see what is what is at least it for now. I for every kick myself, okay being sold it. I framed it and called it behind me as a reminder to never ever sell a property again.

Taylor   35:33  

So, yeah, it's the ones that do well that you sell that that are really the worst.

Michael Plaks  35:38  

Yes. then they and then they do even better.

Taylor   35:42  

Yeah. My favorite question here at the end of the show is what is the most important lesson that you've learned in business and investing?

Michael Plaks  35:53  

in business and investing? The most important question was to trust your gut. Honest. Okay, like I could I could probably like five or 10 random no no 10 random like 10 unrelated answers to that question, but one that comes right now and it comes because of a certain situation we just discussed with a client. Okay, we've had a recent consultation with a client and what they did is okay, they had a sale. They had a good piece of property that appreciated very high and it was right before the Coronavirus broadcast right before that.

They had a contract. at that point, they decided that you know what, they could do a little bit better if they held onto that. they hit him that maybe they should go button what happened if they wanted to sell they wanted to close on that, but they went to one of the mastermind meetings. Talk to their bodies. the saying is, well, you can do better. You got to write down that mortgage, don't rush, like hold another month.

they called another month. They did call it for another month and then around again. that whole thing collapsed, that contract is out. Now he wished that he could sell it for, like, 70% of what that contract was for and can you hold him to his property? And he's saying, but I wanted to sell that. I wanted to close I got influenced by my body's   in that mastermind group, because they shamed me into that and I'm saying, Oh, no, like we ran comps in that area, you could do better and because and I wanted to close on that and that's like, actually not the first story that we hear about it. I'm saying, yes, do that. Here's an example. Like, my personal stories that are like, Okay, I'm sitting here in my office right now. Like in the office building, where my office is for the last 10 years. prior to that I was working out of my home office.

A lot of people on the podcast right now can probably relate to that. Yeah. I always get that feeling insane is like, well, it might go better if I had a very old office. I waited too long then when I got it, and I should have gotten it years earlier when I first thought about it, so that's back to my list. I think when you feel something should be done, trust you. trust your gut feeling. If you want to get into something, if you like the property, go for it.   go do it. Find a way Don't just sit and over analyze how those themes could play out. move in. I don't remember who said that. But I recently read I think on Facebook. Somebody was quoting the guy way smarter than I am.

When he says `` Use, you'll lose them most, not from bad decisions, but from indecision. nothing. That means very true to me, from my personal experience and from that of candidates or real estate investors that we are working with.

Taylor   39:17  

Wow, I love that. Michael, thank you for joining us today and sharing all of this. I think it's important to see the other side of everything and understand pros and cons of anything in our investing strategy. you brought that to us today with this cost segregation discussion. If folks want to get in touch with you, where can they find you?

Michael Plaks  39:39  

I'm very easy to find, okay, you just Google "black belt real estate taxation", or just go directly on my website www.michaelplaks.com. That's all we're doing. website,   you can also very easily find me on Facebook in bigger pockets. any play like on 25 different podcasts, like anywhere where people talk about real estate. That's what I love to do.

Taylor   40:13  

Great, I love it. links will be in the show notes too. I'll be sure to put a link to your bigger pockets post as well. if folks want to go back and read through it. It's another thing to do. Yeah, formed our discussion here. Really appreciate you joining us today. Everybody out there. Thank you for tuning in.

If you're enjoying the show, please leave us a rating and review on Apple podcasts. It helps other people learn about the show. It is very much appreciated. If you know anyone who could use a little bit more passive wealth in their lives. Please share the show with them and bring them into the tribe. Thanks for tuning in once again. Hope you have a great rest of your day and a great week and we'll talk to you on the next episode. Bye