Explosive Multifamily Investing Growth Strategies with Annie Dickerson

Annie Dickerson from Goodegg Investments joins us today to teach us strategies which she and her business partner have used to rapidly grow their multifamily syndication portfolio. She teaches critical branding and messaging lessons which many business owners miss when trying to find their ideal client.

Get in touch:

https://goodegginvestments.com/

 

Other Similar Episodes:

5 Year Plan to Financial Freedom with Anna Kelley

Multifamily Success thru Coaching, Planning, and Action with Jens Nielsen

Guest Bio:

Annie Dickerson started investing in real estate over ten years ago, first through house hacking duplexes, then went on to invest in out-of-state rentals and eventually started investing passively in real estate syndications. Annie is a co-founder and managing partner at Goodegg Investments, a company that helps people learn about and invest passively in real estate syndications. To date, Goodegg Investments has co-syndicated over $700 million of real estate assets in multifamily, self storage, and manufactured home parks.

Full Transcript

SUMMARY KEYWORDS

investing, income, investment, tax, losses, real estate, depreciation, business, property, solo, deal, self directed ira, paid, called, passive, sponsor, generating, tracking, syndication, 401k

SPEAKERS

Taylor , Thomas Castelli

Thomas Castelli 00:00

I'd say one of the main key factors you look at is are you generating self employment income. If you're a consultant, you're a real estate agent, you're doing online marketing you're, you have a side, a side business where you're actively involved you're generating profits and you're putting out a schedule to see if your tax return. Or perhaps you have an S corp using an S Corp. As long as you're just generating income from that business, and you're paying the self employment tax or your subjects and self employment tax, then you're going to be eligible for the solo 401k.

Taylor 00:35

Welcome to passive wealth strategies for busy professionals. today. Our guest is Thomas Castelli for those of you who do not know I'm your host Taylor load I am a real estate syndication real estate investor, a busy professional and obviously the host of the passive wealth strategies podcast. Happy to be talking with you today. Like I said, Our guest is Thomas Castelli. Thomas is a CPA. Today we're going to talk about tax strategies. For passive investors, particularly as they pertain to real estate syndications topic near and dear to my heart. So Thomas, thank you for joining us today.

Thomas Castelli 01:10

Thank you for having me. It's an honor to be here.

Taylor 01:13

happy to talk with you. It's an honor to have you as we were talking before we were recording. You've been on the Motley Fool's podcast, which is a huge one and a number of another fantastic podcast. So you're, you're a big get for this show. Happy to have you. Let's get right into it. So we're going to talk about tax strategies for limited partners in syndication. So I guess let's start at the beginning. What options do we have available to us if we're passively investing in syndications?

Thomas Castelli 01:41

So I think I think the first thing just to point out for everybody who's passively investing is in syndications is that you can't use the losses generally speaking against your ordinary income, which would be your W two income or your or your other business income unless of course, your real estate professional eyes kind of wanted to clear The air there, I know there's a lot of confusion for limited partners, they're out here doctors will contact us and, and think that they're going to go ahead and invest in this partnership and and they're going to you know, minimize their their w two or their business income so that's not the case but the good news is for, for for people who are investing in real estate syndications. If you're an accredited investor, you're probably somewhere in the 32 to 35 37% tax bracket. 

When you're investing in real estate syndication, for the most part to sponsor who you're investing with, is going to use something called a cost segregation study. And to make a long story short, the cost segregation study goes in and breaks down the various components of their of the property into their various useful lives, five, seven and 15 year 27.5 year for the most part when you deal with residential multifamily properties, and that five and 757 to 15 year property can all be depreciated in the first year using bonus depreciation and what this does is it creates massive passive losses for you. Basically, these passive losses will shelter the the rental income from the real estate syndication. 

Remember, rental income taxes, ordinary income, still be taxed at your 30 to 35 37% tax rates at the federal level addition to state, but because you have these losses that are generated by the cost segregation, study, your shelter and all that income from tax, also, whatever income, whatever, because you're generating massive amounts of losses in that first year, those will be suspended and they will carry forward for you. The first thing that they'll do is they'll offset any other passive income you have. So if you have other passive investments from real estate, maybe you are invested as a limited partner, small businesses generating income, you can use those losses to offset that income as well. 

You could use that income you can use those lists to offset future income and future your future passive income in future years, which is definitely beneficial to make sure you're not paying any taxes on The income generated from that investment. Now, here's where there's a particularly, particularly interesting strategy, right? So that's great. You can shell through the income during the time that you own the investment from the cash flows. But what happens when you sell that investment? Well, typically 1031 exchanges on limited partnership interest and what's the entire syndication? Is it a go ahead and use the 1031 exchange, that's usually not a viable option because to make that happen in that type of transaction, just far outweigh the benefits of the deferral. 

But what you can do is you can in the year in that year, you sell the investment in the year that the syndicate, you know, sends it sells the property and then liquidates the investment, you're going to have a capital gain, hopefully sooner you made money. And then the way to you know what, when there's a capital gain, there's usually taxes. But what you can do is you can invest into a another syndicate, or perhaps a rental property of your own if that's the route you want to go And use a cost segregation study to create more passive losses on that new investment.

 Those passive losses, canal offset the passive know the gain from that investment because as a passive activity for you. So we'll see a lot of our clients, the real estate CPA, the firm that I work for, they will go ahead and they will, someone will liquidate investment have like, you know, so to say a $50,000 investment, you might have a 12 1315 k capital gain, and you can just go roll that money back into another investment. And that investment that syndicate that syndication, we use a cost segregation study, you're creating more losses and you're sheltering that capital gain from tax. So yeah, for limited partners. That's that's pretty much the biggest strategies you can use, but they are pretty powerful. It's a great way to basically increase your effective tax rates. Okay, so who's your favorite tax rate, my bed

Taylor 05:59

Decrease Yeah, decrease your effective tax rate. So, it It sounds like it's kind of a snowball type of thing or like you said, you get into the syndications take depreciation and then you want to in order to keep that ball rolling with getting that tax benefit, you want to keep rolling that into properties that you are going to be have some bonus depreciation and cost segregation study to get that initial depreciation to Is it a deferral of taxes or what how's that termed? What's that called?

Thomas Castelli 06:36

So that's that's a

Thomas Castelli 06:39

it's definitely it's you're definitely deferring the taxes because at some point what's going to happen is you're unless you pass away and you pass all your, your, your holdings down to your heirs. You're going to, you're going to either run out of bonus depreciation, depreciation will a well it starts the phase out in 2022 will be completely phase down to 26 or you're going to stop ao investing and you're basically have no passive losses to to exit to use against the gains of those final investments you make at some point down the line when the road ends.

Taylor 07:14

Okay, okay, so as far as tracking this throughout the life of your portfolio, do you have to keep like tracking all of the depreciation you've taken? I mean, I suppose it's good to take good right have good records on depreciation that you've you've claimed but what's the recommended way to kind of I guess track all your you know, depreciation and make sure you're doing this properly and really your books and dizzy should the average passive investor in syndications have a bookkeeper or their CPA do bookkeeping for them to you know, track everything they've done related to depreciation of their properties?

Thomas Castelli 07:57

Oh, no, I, you definitely don't need a bookkeeper when you're When you're investing passively for sure, this is all mainly going to be tracked on your tax returns as, as a passive investor to receive a K one from from your limited partnership interest, that's going to include your income or loss each year, it generally in that first year, you're going to see a thing it's, of course on top time ahead of things align to rental income or loss and that k one, you're going to see pretty big loss in that first year.

 That loss is going to be when you file that k one onto your 1040 your personal tax return. That's where it's going that on that form, that's where it's going to determine how that loss is going to be treated. If you if you have no passive income or no capital gains from passive activities, those losses will be suspended. And they're going to be suspended and captured on the on form 858. That's passive activity loss limitations. That's where you're going to be tracking and the schedules that come with that on your tax return. 

That's where you're going to be tracking how much passive losses You have available. And that that's pretty much how you're going to be keeping tabs on it. Now, I'm sure if you wanted to, you can create a spreadsheet and you could create formulas to track all this for you. But this to go as far as to say that you need your your CPA to have a bookkeeping system for you or something along those lines. Absolutely not. You can usually go to your CPA, they'll be able to review your tax returns and tell you relatively quickly how much passive losses if any that you have available.

Taylor 09:28

Okay, that's good to know. I mean, I'm somebody I like tracking things so I can plan ahead. So it's good to know that we don't need to get sued to super detailed in our plan for tracking our depreciation that we've claimed over the years now. I've heard some folks out there in the real estate, real estate tax space, talk about using retirement funds for real estate like a self directed IRA, and why that's not ideal. 

deal because self directed IRAs cannot take advantage of depreciation in the same way that someone investing with just you know, regular funds ordinary funds can. Do you feel the same way? Or what advantages might we have available to us if we're investing with a retirement account? Yes. So

Thomas Castelli 10:17

that's there's there's a lot that goes on with retirement accounts I think most people aren't aware of and let me just start from the top right. So when you're using with a when you're investing with a self directed IRA, so you had an IRA, maybe with fidelity or Vanguard or whatever, and you take it to one of the self directed, self directed shops and you self directed now you're investing in, let's say, multifamily syndication? Well, there's something called the UDF I unrelated debt financed income, and that's a long story short, that's the amount of income that's attributable to debt financing. 

So for most syndications, you're going to be involved in you're going to the property is going to be financed, you know, 6575, perhaps 80% or more in some cases, within debt. So let's just say that you have 75% debt financing on the property, and that property generates $10,000 of income 7500 of that so 75% of that income is going to be considered attributable to debt, because the debt set itself is financed 75% by debt, and that that amounts will be subject to unrelated business income tax also known as you bit and that is taxed the trust tax rates up to up to goes up to 12%. 

And it goes up to 37% answer just $12,500 of income. So there is a little known tax consequences investing a self directed IRA that most people don't know about, and what depreciation does for that purposes is it will shelter your your income from you bit from the you bit tax for a majority of the life of the investment in most cases especially If you're investing again, evaluate because there's there's not that much cash flow shot coming off the investment. So, basically, circling back to what I said before about the passive losses, those losses in your IRA will show through that income from the ubik tax. 

However, when you ultimately sell that investment, you're probably going to be impacted by you bit by the revisiting of tax on the sale. Now, there's been studies that have been done and I've ran my own calculations for clients. And usually it's the total investment impact usually about one to 2% when you when you are impacted by that, so it's just something to be something to be aware of, be aware of what invest in their self directed IRA, there is that tax. Now. If you're going to invest in a if you want to do if you want to do that through a retirement account, the ideal the ideal, ideal vehicle to invest in syndications is a solo 401k Sometimes it's called the QR P. So lokay, basically to self employed 401k for self employed individuals. So foreign keys are generally exempt from UDF phi on rental properties. So you can go ahead and invest in a multifamily syndication through the solo 401k. 

And you're not dealing with that UDF phi is completely tax free. You don't have to worry about any of that which is which is which is great. But I think to just kind of sum that part up what most people say why it's not a good idea to put real estate into a into an IRA to begin with is because you're putting a tax shelter, if you will, into a another tax shelter. When if you're investing, you know, IRAs, you're not paying capital gains tax on the gains within your IRA, you're not paying taxes on the dividends that you are in within your self directed IRA when you invest in real estate outside of your IRA That's the real estate's could be sheltered from tax by using depreciation. So when you're putting, and that's, you know, for a lot of people that's the main that's one of the key core drivers of their, their, them choosing to invest in real estate is the tax benefits, especially when you're getting to that higher tax bracket. So when you're putting a tax shelter within another tax shelter, you're negating.

Taylor 14:23

Interesting, okay, and regarding you brought up the solo 401k, the Q RP, and that's thrown out there a lot on the online forums for folks saying exactly what you said that the SD IRA is subject to you bet and the solo 401k is not so you should go solo 401k but that conversation usually does not include, okay, who's eligible for a solo 401k you mentioned, self employed, but what really counts as far as a solo 401k is concerned as a side business. Good enough to Open a solo 401k if you have a W two type job or how dedicated or or whatever Do you have to be to your solo business to open a solo? 401k?

Thomas Castelli 15:10

Great question. So you can absolutely open a solo okay with a side business. I'd say one of the main key factors you have to look at it is are you generating self employment income. So if you're a consultant, you're a real estate agent, you're doing online marketing, you're, you have a side, a side business where you're actively involved, you're generating profits, and you're putting out a Schedule C of your tax return. Or perhaps you have an S corp using an S Corp.

 As long as you're just generating income from that business, and you're paying the self employment tax or you're you're subject to self employment tax, then you're going to be eligible for the solo 401k high level. Another factor to consider though is you know, we've seen all types of crazy stuff happens where people We'll say oh, here's my affiliate, here's my affiliate link, you know, go send this to 10 of your friends and you'll generate $1,000 and an income and sure that income is subject to the self employment tax and surely self employed income if you want to call it that. But is it sustainable you need to have income you don't want to be open so foreign k for and basically you need to have income year over year because in order to have in order to continue to have the cell phone pay open, you need to be generating income when you close your business and you're no longer have self employment income, you have one year to shut down that so far, okay.

 In French roll those funds over into a another retirement account, perhaps the cell phone k with employer or it's an IRA. So I'd say those are two key factors. The two key things you know, very high level, you need to be general you need to have a business that's generating income. And you need to have a and you need to be to make any to be sure that you'd be doing for the foreseeable future. These is no point open up. So foreign K and going through the entire process, just that Shut a year later. So I would say side businesses are fine, but you have to think a little bit long term with

Taylor 17:06

  1. Interesting. So I have a number of Doctor friends. And I've talked to them about the business situation of being a doctor. And one in particular comes to mind, I'm not gonna use his name, but if he listens, he knows who he is. And he our doctor, here in Richmond, where I live. And he's telling me that they're, I guess they're employed as 1099 contractors or something like that. 

And he has his, his own business, I suppose that the hospital pays and then all of his expenses come out of that business and you know, his salary comes out of that business. I mean, obviously, we're not giving him specific advice, but for someone like that, that is, say a doctor who's self employed, or potentially self employed, does that count as self employment for solo 401k purpose purposes?

Thomas Castelli 17:55

So he's generate he hasn't he's getting paid on 1099 basis. Yeah. I would say that point absolutely does if you're getting paid on a 1099 basis, and you're he's gonna have to report that on Schedule C of his tax returns, or he's going to have to report it. Yours using an S Corp. That's a story. But um, yes, he's short. Yes. Yeah. If you in those situations, you're getting 1099 income, you're actively participating in that activity. Which doctor? Definitely is. you're eligible for, and so forth? Ok. Ok. Ok. Cool.

Taylor 18:27

Gotcha. So I mean, that that is a big topic that comes up in the forums online. Like I said, the solo 401k versus self directed IRA. debate. Another one that I've heard come up at conferences, for example, is the there's the benefits of being a real estate professional for taxation purposes and say, maybe you have one, you know, a working couple where one brings in the majority of the income or while only one of them works. Can the other one the other spouse, get a position at somewhere in real estate or something like that, and file as a real estate professional and get all of the taxation benefits of filing as a real estate professional for the both of them. And what's a? Do you see that? And what's like a, like a common set up to do that? If you do see that?

Thomas Castelli 19:23

Yeah, so we absolutely see that all the time. That's something we help a lot of our clients actually achieve is how to like kind of think through and work through to get there. But yes, it's absolutely possible. What we typically see is one spouse who will be a full time doctor or run a full time business. And you'll have another spouse who, who either works part time or has a part time business that they they're running, or they don't work at all. And with the other outside of real estate, of course and what that spouse would do that the spouse who's not working a full time capacity would would work with start building a rental portfolio and after the end, basically There's certain requirements. 

So to qualify as a real estate professional, you spend at least 750 hours in a real property trader business and more than half your total working time. So if you work the Thousand and One hours at part time w two job, you have to work at least 1002 hours. In the real estate, this is a get there, that's why you'll see this other the other spouse do this. So in order to get those hundred 50 hours, you need to build a which sentence with the hours I believe comes out to be roughly by mistake, like 15 hours per week. So you need to build a rental portfolio that you're going to be actively participating in. So what that means is, you know, you're out you're, you're hunting for properties, you're finding the properties, you're closing on them. And then you're in most cases you're managing, managing yourself managing or you're playing a significant role in the management process to get those hours. So that's, that's the one thing we'll typically see. And then you then there's a second part of the test that the The couple needs to qualify. So once one cut once one spouse reaches that 750 hour threshold, they also need to meet the material, the material participation threshold on the rental property specifically, and this means that you're spending, there's seven different tests.

But we'll just talk about one here The most common test that people use the past, which is you're spending 500 hours or more across your entire rental portfolio. And what that allows you and what that allows you to do, that's the that's the key port that the files are ours is the key part that allows you to take your losses from your rental portfolio, use it against your other income. So it's just to kind of summarize this a little bit. Yeah, what happens is you have one spouse who is working a full time job. There, they are working a full time business, you have another spouse either working part time or not at all, the second spouse who's working part time or not at all, we'll start we'll work in a Real Property trader business, for the most part that's going to be building a rental portfolio, they will build that rental portfolio to achieve those hourly requirements. And then they will use the losses from the rental portfolio again, usually through cost segregation studies to to offset the income of the spouse who's making a lot of money, presumably, on the W two side, or running their own businesses, not a real property trader business.

Taylor 22:28

Interesting. I can see how that would be a huge it would be a lot of tax benefits for very high income professionals like doctors, for example, surgeons, and higher paid, you know, finance professionals and lawyers and things like that. Definitely a very interesting opportunity out there that some folks can take advantage of. Right now. We're going to take a quick break for our sponsor. All right, Thomas. I've got three questions. I asked every guest on the show. Are you ready?

Thomas Castelli 22:57

yet? Ready? Go.

Taylor 22:58

All right. First one What is the best investment

Thomas Castelli 23:02

that you ever made? The best investment I ever made? That was definitely an investment in a private equity fund that invests in real estate. The fund invests in multifamily self storage and there's a hotel in it but it's mostly multi mostly multifamily and self storage. The way the funds structured it pays an 8% annual press and it's paid monthly so invest the money in it you're paid every month get a check the deposit or you get an E CH, right into your bank account has been an excellent investment 5050 split on the capital Galen, excuse me on the back end of the deal. And no fees from the sponsors is there their entire their entire split is that 50-50 profit on the back end which is which has been fantastic, easily the best investment that I've that I've made.

Taylor 23:53

Wow, that's a pretty sweet investment. On the other side of that we have the worst investment well What is the worst investment that you made? Bit Connect?

Thomas Castelli 24:03

Um I don't know if you're familiar with Bitcoin on that rush last year thing in 2018 there's this thing called bit connect and you basically put your money in it and they I forgot exactly how it worked off the top of my head but they pay you back a certain amount anyway what happened with bit Connect basically went under they got stopped by by some authority shut them down I forgot who was and I lost all the money I was in the back connected account, which wasn't Devon It was a devastating loss but it was like yeah, this is definitely the worst investment that I've ever made.

Taylor 24:39

Well yeah, I pulled up the Wikipedia page as you were talking and within the first paragraph, it calls it a type of Ponzi scheme so that is a good sign. But uh,

Thomas Castelli 24:51

and I know a lot of people who have a lot more money than I did I know people was 10s of thousands of dollars. I don't know people but I've heard of people losing hundreds of thousands of dollars. Big Connect island was maybe a few grand but still bad investment.

Taylor 25:04

Bad investment but yeah, a couple thousand dollars. Oh well it's an expensive lesson but not a life changing the downside I suppose. Now my favorite question at the end of the show is what is the most important lesson that you've learned in investing.

Thomas Castelli 25:23

Most important lesson I learned is always invest with if you're going to be investing passively, always invest in a deal has a press, because the press it puts pressure on the sponsor to perform and also you're guaranteeing a minimum rate of return or you're getting as close to a guarantee of a minimum rate of return you have there's there's other investments that could have named as the worst investment but I basically almost broke even on that deal. made a small amount of money, but that capital would have been better placed in another deal that had a press and I would have known least known had a good shot of getting at least in percent return before the sponsor got anything. So that would be the most important thing I've learned in investing would be, would be this would be this would be always do due diligence due diligence on the sponsor, and always invest in syndication as a preferred return.

Taylor 26:17

Interesting. Okay, so I have a follow up question to that. It's a great answer. We see these days because we're in a seller's market and sponsors want to get deals done. Sometimes we see sponsors doing deals where Yeah, there's a prep in the paperwork, but we're not really expecting to pay the prep, if we're being totally honest. It doesn't really look like maybe the prep is going to get paid. Now you, my guess is you probably shy away from that. But as far as as a passive investor, how do we see that coming? I mean, it might say, there's going to be an 8% prep in the, you know, underwriting, but maybe underwriting is a conservative. What do you think about that?

Thomas Castelli 26:57

And I would definitely say I would definitely say It all comes down to the due diligence and maybe that's the number one piece of advice do the due diligence up front on the to that includes a sponsor that includes the market and includes the property to an extent as a limited partner. And includes the includes the financial projections. You gotta ask yourself is this realistic? Because we just had Frank l&l er podcast. We had him on there and he was we were talking about at the end of the podcast, all these sponsors, you see all these you see these attorneys for the most part, they'll write up these these operating agreements and and and wuerffel structures that that, that don't apply to real life, they'll never actually you never actually see them occur. They were like their own model for projection. So I guess really have to just kind of use your trust your gut, use some common sense. And just ask yourself and and compare deals and do you do your due diligence to see is this actually possible, you know, or is this too good to be true? And that won't steer you wrong?

Taylor 27:59

Yeah. I mean, I see a lot of too good to be true. I wouldn't say a lot of but decent amount of too good to be true these days with folks trying to get deals done. So, yeah, important to watch out. So I appreciate everything today and folks want to learn more about you. You mentioned you have a podcast, where can they find you? Where can they find your podcast? What's the name of your podcast?

Thomas Castelli 28:23

Yeah. So we have we have a podcast called the real estate CPA podcast. You can find it pretty much iTunes, iTunes, Stitcher, SoundCloud, Spotify, the whole nine. It's everywhere. You can find it, a lot of tax and accounting content on there. You find me on LinkedIn. And also just wanted to let everybody know we are doing a tax and legal summit, specifically for real estate investors. It's going to be tax and legal experts coming up in February, end of February, early March. And if you're interested in checking out the event, you can check it out at tax and legal summit calm and use promo code Tom 20 and you'll get 50 ticket, get your ticket for 99 bucks.

Taylor 29:03

Sweet. Good deal. Awesome. Well, I definitely appreciate that and I'm gonna have to try to get Frank Allen early on the show. He's his book on calculating cash flow. It's It was one of the first books I read about real estate after Rich Dad, of course. And it's still one of my favorites. I mean, I'm a numbers guy. So, you know, I gobbled it up. So that's quite the quote to get you got.

Thomas Castelli 29:27

Yeah, no, no, absolutely. I think everybody should have. Everybody should have that book on their bookshelf, every real estate investor and Joe Frank was a great guest and I would definitely recommend you just you just reach out to him. Let him know what you want to do.

29:41

On the show,

Taylor 29:42

awesome. I'm gonna have to do that. I have a an action item now. Well, thanks once again for joining us and for all the great lessons today. I know thank you for everybody out there. Thank you for tuning in. I hope you're enjoying the show. If you are please leave us a five star rating on iTunes, Apple podcasts. Now I'm going to keep calling it it. That would be a very big help. I very much appreciate it. If you know anyone that could use a little bit more passive wealth in their lives, please share the show with them and bring them into the fold. For now. I'm your host Taylor load signing off. Have a great day. Bye

 

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About the Host

Taylor on stage

Hi, I’m Taylor. To date I’ve acquired or partnered on over $250 Million in Commercial Real Estate Investments. I help busy professionals invest in multifamily and self storage real estate through my company NT Capital

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