Replace Your Income by Building an Online Business with Rob Berger

Full Transcript

Taylor   0:02  

What's going on guys? This is a passive wealth strategy for busy professionals. Thank you for tuning in. Today our guest is Rob Berger from Forbes and dough roller.com. Today we're talking about building a successful blog, leaving your job and then ultimately selling that blog and doing what you want to do. That is exactly what Rob did. He started a blog way back in the day he just did it for fun and made a little bit of money. gradually he progressed and built that blog to the point where it was getting a ton of views making a lot of money. He left his job as a lawyer making great money and replaced that income through his blog. He ultimately ended up selling that blog and the associated podcast and now he works with Forbes, and is just living the life that he wants to live. There are a lot of folks out there who are looking at building an online business and you got to learn from folks who have been successful, like, Rob, there's so many lessons in this interview, we get a little bit into the weeds on it. But it's if you're gonna do this, if you're gonna build an online business, you have to get into the weeds. It's all about the weeds. it's just fascinating, really interesting about the work that goes into building a successful blog, replacing your income, leaving your day job and living the life you want to live. I love that. That's what we're all about here. you're gonna love this interview too. For those of you who are new to the show, I'm your host Taylor load. I'm a real estate investor. I'm a real estate syndicator. I buy real estate with passive investors and split the return. love talking about all methods that lead folks to financial independence. Not everybody does this. Not everybody succeeds at this, and Rob did so fantastic love having these success stories. Without any further ado, here we go. with Rob Berger, Rob, thank you for joining us today.

Unknown Speaker  2:04  

Taylor, thanks for having me.

Taylor   2:05  

Thrilled to talk with you. You're a fantastic success story. But for those out there who don't know, can you tell us a bit about your background and what you've done over the years?

Rob Berger  2:15  

Sure. So I started out sort of a traditional, I guess, career path. I went into college, I went to law school, started practicing law in Washington, DC and enjoyed that to a point I guess. But I think my life started to change at least career wise in oh seven. When a couple of things were happening. One, I was getting very serious about personal finance and investing and more focused on using money to buy my freedom, then to buy expensive watches or whatever. I started a personal finance blog at the time, it was just a pure hobby. Didn't have any idea that I could turn it into a business. I was up every day, seven days a week 5am working on that thing, and then  went to work during the work week and  had two children. So raising the family, but it turned into a business. It wasn't overnight. I was an overnight success after like,  five years. But it turned into a full time business that allowed me to retire from the practice of law when I was in my late 40s.

And then that was in 2016.

then two years later, and I can go into any detail you want by selling the business again, that was out of the blue. I wasn't trying to sell it, but someone made me an offer I couldn't refuse. So I sold a couple of websites and a podcast. I'm still the host of the podcast, but I don't own it anymore. then again, out of the blue, everything happens to me out of the blue, I'm not sure what's up with that. But Forbes asked me I've write for Forbes as a contributor for years. I'm still a contributor. But they asked me to come on as an employee as a deputy editor to run a section of their website. So I did that for two years and actually just kind of went part time just a couple of months ago. Turn that reins over to someone else who published a book before mom and dad retire. Now I'm on your show. So I've kind of come full circle.

Taylor   4:10  

And here we are. That's that's great way to sum it up and today I really wanted to dig into that experience of building a successful website because that's a goal that a lot of folks have. the market has changed over time. you gave us a window into your level of commitment when you said waking up 5am seven days a week. That's very impressive. So tell us about the process of literally running that business because like, were you a one man show at that point. At that point. You sold it. You have a lot of employees like let's go through the whole thing.

Rob Berger  4:42  

Yeah, sure. So when I started it, I was absolutely a one man show to begin with. I didn't know any other bloggers. This was no seven so blogs. I mean, they were kind of starting to be a thing but  not really. I didn't know anything. I didn't know how to set up a website. I didn't know how to get traffic to it. I had no concept of making money. So which in some odd way was part of the fun, I got to learn all of that stuff. So I'm literally just searching on Google for hours on end about how to do stuff. I just started publishing content, maybe one article a day, and learning.  you fast forward maybe six months, I've been doing this for three or four hours a day while I practice law. At the same time, I've made virtually nothing. I think I made $100 my first six months, but I've learned a lot and I started to meet other bloggers, other personal finance bloggers.  We shared information back and forth, and we learned from each other. We help each other as best we can. Whether it's on social media, of course, back then the social media was different than it is today. Very, but  same concept, I guess. just slowly, it turned into a business. I think my first full year I think it made 30,000 that would be 2009. I was thrilled with that. It wasn't like I was going to quit my day job. But it's like, wow, this is,  this is pretty, pretty neat. But it was slow, I can kind of,  I sort of go through that first a year and a half quickly. But when you're living it,  you have no idea how this thing is going to end and you're putting in a lot of time and effort. And,  there were times when I wanted to quit, but by the full second year,  made a full time income. So at that point, I knew this was in me for the long haul. By that point, I started hiring some help. I started off with some freelance writers, so I didn't have to produce all the content. As the site grew, I eventually hired a sort of a managing editor. At one point,  by the time I sold it, I had someone running all of the advertising on the site for me, which is more than just lining up advertisers. Since I'm in the finance space. It was also compliance, I had to make sure that  if I set a bank account paid 1% it better be accurate. So  there are a lot of compliance issues that have to be dealt with. I had probably half a dozen writers and a managing editor. So yeah, that was kind of what it looked like when I sold it. it was getting a lot of traffic and during a nice income, and had a couple other sites along with it that we're doing well, but both in the personal finance space. Then I had the dough roller money podcast, and it was doing very well. It wasn't monetized. But it was a, it was a way to sort of get the name of the site out there and to build a community. That's what it looked like when I sold it in 2018.

Taylor   7:37  

That is fantastic. I'm glad you brought up some of the avenues of monetization that you found and were successful. That's one of the things I wanted to make sure we touched on: where is it just advertising? Is it affiliate type relationships? I mean, I don't. I am now with an adblock on nearly everybody's computer. I mean, how many ads are really seeing how lucrative is that? So what are the kind of the routes that bloggers go to bring in those?

Rob Berger  8:07  

Question? So I kind of put it in a couple of a couple of buckets. The first would be like you said affiliate link. So that's your, you're effectively selling someone else's product. But it's not through banner ads, it's through direct link. So as an example, Amazon has an affiliate program so I can, or anyone that's part of the program can link to just about anything Amazon sells with a special affiliate link. you'll make a percentage if someone clicks through and buys something, right. But there's, I mean, there's affiliate relationships in every industry and so that's that's one approach and probably the approach that made me the most money. But then banner ads can actually still be very lucrative, particularly in spaces where the affiliate offers aren't aren't as robust. Or you could have some content on your site that just doesn't lend it To an affiliate relationship, but still gets a lot of traffic and you can find the banner ads, like Google AdSense, for example, can still do very well, even with the ad blockers. then, so that those are sort of two buckets. then the third one would be and this is not really something I did, but it's been profitable for a lot of folks, and that is selling your own products, right.   you think about informational products, which I weigh, the red flag always goes up for me. But there are some really good ones out there. folks have written some really good content and created some really good online courses that help people and whatever it could be helping them become a better photographer, or helping them with their finances, or helping them understand affiliate marketing, for example. that can be very lucrative as well. The one thing I'll say is regardless of which of those you use, maybe use all of them. You got to have traffic. I mean, none of this is going to work without traffic and the best traffic by largest from search kitchens. Yeah, social media traffic can be great. You buy traffic, obviously, that can be lucrative. But that's a whole nother sort of thing to learn. But for me search engine optimized SEO, search engine traffic was what drove most of the traffic and revenue. it turned out to be very lucrative,

Taylor   10:19  

I guess to what degree or or say, how many clicks or users or whatever? Do you need to, like at a minimum start being viable as a blog? I mean, one, one click a month not gonna do it for you if you have the best link in the world. Right.

Rob Berger  10:34  

Right. It's a great question. it's important to understand that there's no one answer to it. The reason is, it takes someone that's got 5000 visitors a month, and he said, Well, how much revenue could that generate? Well, let's imagine one site is a lending site and they talk about student loans, mortgages, maybe credit cards, and another site, a great site, but they do book reviews, and they both get 5000 Visitors. But for better or worse, for good or bad, the lending site, the finance side is gonna make a lot more money. It's just because there's just more money to be made in that space than in book reviews. So the difference is going to be night and day. So it really depends on the topic. But for example, I mentioned 5000 visitors, certainly, you can make decent money with 5000 visitors a month, which is not, of course not much. It's a lot. By the way, when you're starting out, that's for sure. But in terms of scaling up,  I think my site made, I don't know, between half a million and a million visitors a month, I would say when I sold it roughly somewhere in that ballpark. But even at 5000 visitors when you're just starting out, if you've got the right topics, you're gonna make the money that you know will certainly begin to change your life. I mean, maybe not overnight, but it'll have a big impact on your budget, and you'll start And join it and you'll grow it from there.

Taylor   12:02  

I guess at what point do you were, especially when you're kind of in that early stage, right? You said, initially you're making like 100 bucks. it's hard to not see that in at least still from the outside. It's hard to not see that as what am I doing with my time here, unless you're just having such a great time waking up at 5am to write the content, build the site. I mean, you've got kids, you've hobbies and other things that you could be investing your time in. So where does that factor in like, did you have a long term goal? And are you seeing that most people kind of getting into it or having that long term goal? Or is it just like a passion project for most, most people,

Rob Berger  12:44  

I do think it helps if you enjoy what you're doing, because, yeah, I mean, you're certainly going to get to a point where you say what in the world am I spending my time on this? For me? I call it the flywheel effect. Your flywheel is really hard to get moving. Once you get moving, it's kind of hard to stop it right. It's like trying To stop one of those, if you do cycling,  once you get the stationary bike movement, it's kind of hard to stop it, at least with your feet.  investing, by the way is the same way you start putting away hundred bucks a month, and three months later, you've got well $300.  it's like, What's going on here? I'm not making any progress. But if you give it enough time, eventually the compounding effect kicks in. I found it to be the same way. I mean, there certainly were times when I thought boy, is this right for me, should I keep doing this? But I always just hung on long enough to have some kind of win,  some kind of good day, a burst of traffic, whatever it might be that said, Okay, yeah, I'm hooked. It kind of kept me going.  there are certainly plateaus. There are times when it feels like the site's not getting better. I'm not getting more traffic. I'm kind of stuck. actually, just to show you this, this is totally unrelated, but I finished this book called mastery by George Lynch. I would highly recommend it's a great book, but he talks about the goal, his journey, these journeys really try to get better at something, but you don't have a specific goal in mind, he actually talks a lot about the plateau, the plateaus seems to be the thing we don't want, right? We don't want to plateau, we want to keep moving upward. But it just doesn't work that way. it's actually during the plateaus that maybe we learned the most just doesn't feel like we are. it's easy to see, in hindsight, it's not so easy to see when you're on the journey, I suppose. But when I look back, those times when the site didn't seem to be getting better, we're probably the most important times in the site's development because I was just Okay, let's forget about specific goals. Let's just buckle down and write good content and promote the site. when I tried to tune everything else out and do that, eventually, you'd see  maybe maybe months down the road, it won't happen overnight, but you'll eventually start to see the site grow.

Taylor   14:56  

Interesting.  I mean, I'm very much curious how you're writing about the personal finance you're and that's been your brand. Then coincidentally, writing about personal finance is helping your personal finances. But, I've found that a lot of the content out there is writing about personal finance and reading about personal finance. It's not most people aren't telling you to go start a blog and start making money or start a side hustle and go start making money off of it blog or not, whatever it is, most of its put money away by the s&p 500 whatever kind of fairly passive investing type of advice and I wonder how does that your experience of being a successful side hustler factor into the actual,  advice and content that you generate? And,  what's the overlap there, if that makes sense? That's another great

Rob Berger  15:57  

question and a lot of personal finance blogs. loggers do talk about how to make money online. I've written about it off and on a little bit. there have been times when I thought,  I'm going to start a brand new site. it's all it's gonna be focused on helping people build an online business. But,  it takes so much time and effort and I have to sort of pick and choose what I want to do. The other thing I've learned is that at least most people that I interact with aren't going to be interested in starting an online business. It sounds good. It's like being a professional golfer. Sounds like a good thing.  you think  but then again, do you want to spend your entire life  soundtrack practicing, which is really what it takes.   with an online business,  most people don't want to get up at five in the morning, seven days a week, most people don't,  want to come home from work, and then sit at a laptop and do more work. I get that,  it's not for everybody. It worked for me, it works for some people. But,  I know you do a lot in real estate, so some people might prefer to buy duplexes. Live in one half and rent the other half out and then eventually move on from there and keep building their real estate Empire. It's just another,  totally different way to build wealth, but certainly a valid one.  yeah, I have kind of made a decision where I just don't spend a lot of my time writing about the online business world,  maybe that'll change in the future. But yeah, it's just kind of a choice.  I tend to write a lot about retirement, retirement investing, and that sort of thing. Which to say it, it doesn't sound nearly as sexy as online business, I should rethink this strategy.

Taylor   17:35  

Well,  it is what it is. I think, that is a great insight that most people aren't going to leave work and then go sit at their laptop for the rest of the night trying to hammer out content because it's it's very, very hard to do and people have,  lives that they want to go live and not everybody wants to be a blogger. Now. You build a successful business, you're in the middle building this successful business and in those plateaus, were any of them related to running out of your own time, because it sounds like it's especially at the beginning. You were using all of your time that you had available and maybe a little more than that. at some point, you run out. Right, so you mentioned you started hiring people. But did you have to learn that lesson, the hard way to start hiring others and just be like, man, I can't get all this done?

Rob Berger  18:28  

Yeah, I mean, it was kind of forced on me at one point, I had a really large trial, I was a trial attorney.  it's,  your preparation time in the months leading up to this trial. then the trial itself, I just simply couldn't continue to run the site wasn't possible. So I sort of turned it over to a managing editor for months. I think some good things came out of that and some not good things came out of that. Part of what I had to learn was how to manage people and how to make sure my vision for the future is still there and affecting and, and motivating all of the content even when I'm not necessarily there to watch it. I frankly, I still don't have mastered that. But I got, I guess, good enough at it to keep the site going. But yeah, so part of it was just out of necessity. I ended up trading money to pay people to do things for my time. even when that particular trial was over, and I had more time on my hands, there were just some things I just didn't want to do anymore.  and I could just pay someone to do it. so I think in the end, getting different perspectives on the site made the site better. so I think it worked out pretty well.

Taylor   19:45  

Interesting. So that's a very interesting circumstance that got you into that case, you're gonna hire somebody. you mentioned that there were some managerial lessons you had to learn along the way. I'm sure you also said you're I don't know imply the year and still have some ground to go in terms of improving that. But I'm sure you know a lot. You've learned a lot. Maybe, what are some of those lessons that you had to learn the hard way?

Rob Berger  20:10  

Well, the first thing, first thing I learned is you can't hire someone and just say like, if you want to hire a writer, you can't hire a writer and then just say, hey, go right for me, doesn't work. You're not going to get what you want. Or you're going to end up hiring someone who may give you what you want, but is extremely expensive.   I learned that I actually did things such as create what I call content recipes. So I said, you're going to write this kind of content. Here's an example of exactly what I want. now you just need to go follow this recipe. But you're going to write about,  this financial product instead of that one or this personal finance topic rather than that one, but it needs to look like this. checklists. So I would use checklists that say okay, we You're done. You need to run through this checklist, whether you're writing the article or uploading it to WordPress, which is the platform we used to publish, because there's a lot of SEO issues that go into that for each article.  Have you tested and looked at 10 different headlines? Do you have the h2? headings? Correct. I don't know if I'm getting too technical. Not that technical, but I don't know. Uh, yeah.  if you've done the right things from an SEO perspective, so a combination of content recipes and checklists, helped a lot. the other thing was, I realized I had to work with people, I couldn't just set them loose. So I'd spent a lot of time with them upfront, to get them to a place where they could then operate on their own. Again,  I hadn't mastered any of this, just so you know. But I had learned and I think I started to get I think I was starting to get much better at it right when I sold everything so now I don't have to really worry about

Taylor   21:59  

1. Well, that's great. I mean, you, you got as good at it clearly as good at it as you needed to be, which is really what matters, right? Getting as good as you need to be. Now, you're, you're out of that business you've moved on, but you're still involved in the space. I'm sure seeing newer bloggers come up and getting started. Times have changed considerably over the last 13 years since you got started. But what are your thoughts about for those out there starting today? What should they be doing if they want to build a personal blog and turn it into a successful side hustle? What are some things to consider?

Rob Berger  22:41  

Well, the first thing would be what your topic is going to be. It certainly doesn't have to be about finance. But you want to have some sense as to the potential for the topic, which could be a whole. We could probably spend an hour talking about anything related to money that can be profitable, anything related to health. can be profitable. But  I mean, for example, there are folks that run, I mentioned photography, I think digital photography, websites that have product reviews and how tos. That can be very lucrative,  you certainly could have a product review site that depends on the product could be very lucrative, but picking the topic both. You want to focus, of course, on the business side, but then you also want to, I think, focus on your own personal interests as well, because there's gonna be times when you're not gonna feel like working on this thing, and it's going to help at least if you have some interest in the topic, and then learn as much as you can. I would do that just by researching, googling, I wouldn't go out and buy a course at least not to begin with. The issue there is it's not that there aren't good courses, but I think people can do that as a way of feeling productive. Okay, I'm making progress. I'm taking this course. really all you're doing is avoiding the real work. Recognize you're not going to have all the answers and you're going to make mistakes, but you just got to start publishing content and promoting it. And,  I know this is sort of high level advice but work to meet as many people in the business as you can meet some,  reach out to other bloggers, even in your own niche or vertical competitors and get to know them.  Once you're up and running, and once we're out of COVID-19 go to a conference or two every year. I mean, I went to fin con, which is a personal finance bloggers conference, I've been to everyone. That's been incredibly beneficial. I've met hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of bloggers, hundreds of advertisers.  I am an example. So I'm a big Vanguard fan. I've had several representatives from Vanguard on my podcast, I see them every year at fin con. Just from getting to know them,  they invited me to publish an article on the vanguard blog, which was published just a couple of weeks ago and it has a link to my site Rob Berger calm. Now, that's not overnight gonna generate anything for me. But that's, that's a good kind of relationship to develop that came about because of a conference.   when I think about advantages, my own personal advantages if I were going to start something from scratch today, it's the relationships that I have with other bloggers, other businesses,  folks, like,  the good folks at Forbes and those just take time, but it's important that you think about that and I didn't at first to me, I was just a loner in my basement publishing content didn't occur to me, I should like,  come out into the light of day and actually meet someone right in the in the in the blogging world. But once I did it, I learned a lot,  and made great friendships. it just makes it more fun. So I guess that's sort of a rambling answer to your question.

Taylor   25:56  

Now, I mean, it's a I think it's the most honest answer. Part of the first things that come to mind for you which I think are indicative now I wonder I think the the business of blogging has obviously become a lot bigger over the years since you got started they're bigger players bigger money in the game and probably I would guess there are larger companies or maybe investors looking to invest in blogs I mean, what do you see there? just  out of curiosity are investing in blogs.

Rob Berger  26:34  

Absolutely. I mean, big big companies are buying blogs. I mean, the linden tree is bought,  they bought the Roth IRA. I think they bought the Roth IRA calmly. No, no, no, they compared cards they bought, I think student loan heroes, I think investopedia maybe bought Roth IRA calm if I remember correctly. I mean, that's nothing new big companies have been buying blogs since maybe 2010. I In turn, by the way, bought some of those blogs back from the big companies, right? Because big companies don't always take care of what they buy. But some do, and so yeah, there's a lot of money. Investment banking is involved in this at times.  It depends on the site, but I would say most companies are looking for sites that are generating a million dollars or more a year in revenue. There are gonna be exceptions to that for sure. But yeah, I mean, buying blogs is a big business. it's,  I know blogs now that are, are in the process of being sold. And,  at the end of the day, it's cash flow. companies want that,  they can buy it privately, a public company thinks a public company trading at 15 times earnings, if they can buy a site for five x. I mean, that's just a great deal for them, even if the overhead for them is a little higher to run that site. it was for the individual blogger. So yeah, definitely a market for blogs, no question about it.

Taylor   28:05  

That is that is so interesting that those blogs generate enough cash flow to be

Unknown Speaker  28:12  

to be interesting, crazy.

Taylor   28:13  

Now, you also said that big companies can do a bad job of managing whatever takes care of the blog. So what are the mistakes that they make?

Rob Berger  28:23  

Well, I don't know if it's so much a mistake, per se. I think it's changed. I haven't seen it as much recently, but back in the day, I think they would, they would buy a lot of blogs. then,  they get to a point where it just,  a given blog might make a million dollars a year, but for a large company, it may not be worth investing a lot of time into that particular web property. Over time,  they kind of let it run down, and that still happens. there are buying opportunities for sure.  if I were more I suppose motivated. I'd like, looking to look at buying sites now. Although with interest rates, acid values are kind of high, that's a whole nother topic. But when interest rates are so low asset values are high. So  I'm not sure if now's the best time to buy. But yeah, there are certainly opportunities out there. Sometimes big companies just decide at some point not to invest the time in a web property that they've spent money on,  they're just making a strategic decision. Wow,

Taylor   29:27  

that is fascinating. I love it. This is a business and we're able to talk about this today. Right now. We're going to take a quick break for our sponsor. All right, Rob, I've got three questions. I asked every guest on the show. Are you ready?

Unknown Speaker  29:41  

I'm ready. All right, great.

Taylor   29:42  

First one, what is the best investment you've ever made? Other than in your education?

Rob Berger  29:48  

Well, certainly if you call it an investment, the best investment was starting my blog. It cost me $10. Yeah, but if I went outside of that and just took the actual what you might think of as investments Certainly I can only give you two I don't that breaks the rules. Investing in HUD foreclosures, I bought HUD foreclosure single family properties in Oh 508. That was a very good investment. We rehabbed them, rented them for years. I've since sold them but then I'll mention Apple, since they're going to release their earnings. I don't know when this will be published, but they're going to release their earnings tomorrow. I bought Apple stock at 13. In 2013, I was 18 and 19. At levels much, much, much lower. So that worked out I have a feeling you're going to ask me what my worst investment was.

Taylor   30:39  

You are exactly right. Now when we have the best investment, we move on to the worst investment. What is the worst investment you've ever made?

Rob Berger  30:47  

So again, Turton, strictly investments, I actually don't have too much to show and admit this year interpret I invested in blockbuster as a turnaround boy, yeah. Now the good news is it wasn't much money. But it convinced me I'm a value investor. When I invested in Apple, it was a value stock. It's certainly a growth considered a growth stock now given its ease and whatnot, but I dabbled in maybe turnaround opportunities in blockbuster when I invested and it was a turnaround opportunity that never turned. So that would that didn't work out so well.

Taylor   31:23  

Wow. So that was that kind of at the timeframe where Netflix is starting to grow and

Rob Berger  31:29  

starts going down. They had this thing called DVDs in the mail. then they had this thing called streaming. And,  yeah, blockbuster just didn't. I like to say that if blockbuster, if that industry were government run, blockbuster would still be going gangbusters.

Unknown Speaker  31:48  

And my

Rob Berger  31:49  

investment would have paid off handsomely. But unfortunately, the free market got the better of man. Yeah, I didn't do so well.

Taylor   31:57  

Man. Well, still Yeah. Like our streaming services, my favorite question. My favorite question here at the end of the show is what is the most important lesson that you've learned in business and investing?

Rob Berger  32:10  

So I mentioned it earlier and it's the flywheel. It's this idea that you've got to put a lot of time and effort into something before you really see the results. When you hear someone's story in a 30 minute podcast, it kind of seems so easy that he did this. He did that and wow, 10 years later. It's not easy and it's a lot of times it's not fun. But I found that if I keep at it, it's not just in business and investing  working out. I was in terrible shape 10 years ago, bad back the whole bit. I'm probably 40 pounds lighter today. Great was then in a much better shape. But it didn't happen overnight. it wasn't always fun. so I kind of try to remind myself of that when I'm starting something new and it's not calling so well. You got to be patient and you just gotta keep pushing against the flywheel eventually it's going to start moving.

Taylor   33:03  

Nice. I love that. Thank you for everything today if folks want to learn more, they want to get in touch with you. They want to learn about your blog and what you got going on. Where can they find you?

Rob Berger  33:12  

The best place is just robberger.com., best place to find me. Great. Well,

Taylor   33:19  

thanks. Once again, I really appreciate that. You're I love hearing success stories and you are one of the best ones I've heard so far. So I love it to everybody out there. Thank you for tuning in. If you're enjoying the show, please leave us a rating or review on Apple podcasts very much appreciated, helps other people learn about the show. If you know anyone who could use a little bit more passive wealth in our lives, please share the show with them and bring them into the tribe. Thanks for tuning in. Once again. I hope you have a great day and a great rest of your week. We'll talk to you on the next one. Bye bye