Go from Residential to Commercial Real Estate Investing with Shane Melanson

Full Transcript

Taylor   0:02  

What's going on guys? This is the passive wealth strategies for busy professionals podcast and today our guest is Shane Melanson. Shane is a very successful real estate investor. He tells us all about his story.

He got started at a young age, he hustled, he worked very hard, he networked Well, he became a millionaire on paper by the time he was 30, made some changes, got out of residential real estate and got into commercial real estate. Now he coaches others, coaches, busy professionals in how to get into commercial real estate, how to invest successfully in commercial real estate for busy, high paid professionals.

Today, we go through a few of his case studies, lessons that he's teaching his students and strategies that they're using today to generate passive income, passive cash flow, to replace their income, whether they want to retire or whatever they want to do to build that passive cash flow and live their life, how they want to live it. It's a great interview.

Shane's a fun guy to talk to. this is a fun one, we did a Facebook Live livestream on this one. If you want to see those in the future, just add me on Facebook, and you will see those we had quite a few people tuning in. That was a lot of fun. Thanks for tuning in.

For those of you who don't know, I'm your host Taylor load. I'm a real estate investor, real estate syndicator, meaning I buy real estate with passive investors and split the return. At a fun time recording this one, you're gonna have a fun time listening. Without any further ado, here we go with Shane. Shane, thank you for joining us on the passive wealth strategies for busy professionals.

Shane Melanson  1:33  

Perfect.

Taylor   1:34  

Glad to be here. Great to talk with you. You've got a lot of great things to share. Before we get into the lessons can you tell us about your background and how you got into real estate investing at a young age and hustled it made it happen?

Shane Melanson  1:46  

Yeah, sure. So. I live here in Calgary, Alberta. I grew up in a kind of a small logging town. Both my parents were teachers. I guess at a young age I was always interested In making money, right? I mean, when I had friends that were business owners, and they always seemed to have kind of fancy toys, when on expensive vacations, and it's not that,  parents as teachers, that was good, right? I mean, I never went without, but we certainly felt pressure, if you will, when unexpected bills came in.

for me, just that that was that was always important. Fast forward, I go to university, I'm back for my first year and building logging roads, and I'd saved up 13,000 bucks that year.

My buddy came to me who was very successful, and I didn't really know what he did. But he invited me to invest in my first quote, unquote, opportunity. When my dad learned about it, he didn't want to miss out on it. And,  there were other people in Waco I put, I don't know, probably close to a million dollars into this venture well, needless to say, nothing came of it. We lost everything.

That was really kind of a rude awakening for me.  when you're 19, you lose 13,000 you think that it's the end of the world? Yes. But in perspective, my parents had just paid off their house, they took out a mortgage for 100,000 to invest in that deal. Wow. when I saw them spend the next 10 years to pay that off, that was kind of like a real trigger event for me, if you will, in terms of just just like, really distrusting and not knowing whether or not investing was even a viable option. 

to your point, I mean, we talked a little bit before this, I worked a lot. Obviously, I had to then pay for school. I worked in the bars and coaching kids. At that time, I was living in a basement suite and my buddy was a bartender and He had only been in his third or fourth house. I was looking at this wondering like, how is this guy he didn't go to,  he dropped out of university. Now he's got four rental properties.

He's paying nothing because he's got three roommates, we pay for everything. I decided to kind of set aside my skepticism of real estate, picked up a Robert Kiyosaki book, I'm sure  Gladney percent of people that invest in real estate,  they all kind of get the Rich Dad Poor Dad. Then I kind of went down a couple of rabbit holes with various people that taught how to invest in real estate. I think at 23 or 24, I bought my first townhouse. Three months later, I bought a fixer upper, and then I just kept going from there.

I mean, I'm happy to talk about that. But the residential side of it is not that exciting, quite, quite frankly. It's just it's just that's how I got started. it made okay money, but it was because it was in an up market, right. If you're buying In Oh 4208 and you're and you're just seeing the market go like this. It covers up a lot of mistakes.

while I thought it was quite smart, I realized quickly in 2008 and had nothing to do with the financial crash, it was just, I had lots of money and I was investing stupidly, and I put 250,000 into a deal that didn't, didn't pan out. Then that was my second big lesson. that's that's a Kohl's Kohl's notes and

Taylor   5:29  

so that got us started and you are working really hard. You are a millionaire on paper at 30 years old, which the vast majority of people cannot say and you may or may not agree but probably self made millionaire, you might consider yourself I'm putting those words in your mouth from your no i was i

Shane Melanson  5:49  

Yeah, I didn't have any there was no help. It was all essentially on me. But yeah, on paper, right that that's the key. you Make a bad investment and that you can get flipped upside down. Yes, you?

Taylor   6:04  

Absolutely. you made that shift that at one point and moved from residential to commercial. that's what I wanted to discuss with you today, making that shift from residential to commercial and why it's it's better, generally speaking, but also for busy professionals, if we're high income professionals that need to make investments and replace that income someday, why should we be investing in commercial real estate rather than residential?

Shane Melanson  6:30  

Yeah, well, so when I was I think I was 26. At the time. A good friend of mine asked me to apply for a job at sunlight financial as a commercial underwriter, commercial lender. it sounded really cool. I thought, yeah, I mean, I'm an investor. Now, how different can it be? Well, I can tell you, I learned, like just so much , in those three years that I was there.

We were lending our small team of about five. We, I think our, our budget for the year was about 300 million. you see a lot of deals and you see office industrial retail multifamily land.

and every once in a while a couple of individuals would come in,  so generally we worked with pension funds Reed's publicly traded companies, wealthy families, but then you'd see individuals come in one one or two guys. they would come in and I'm thinking like, How the hell did these guys have $5 million to be able to invest in a retail property? Well, it turns out, they don't have $5 million.

They raise it from a group of people. Right. And, I quickly learned this concept of syndication. And, but there were still,  quite a few holes in my plan in being able to jump from residential to commercial. I met I won't go into the big story but my wife I was dating her. Her dad was a big commercial real estate developer and investor here in Calgary. They've got a publicly traded company.

He found out what I found out that I was investing and kind of saw my perseverance and hustle. When I lost my 250, he basically said to my wife, if Shane's interested in these and he's serious about doing this, let them know I'm going on a business trip down to Houston, and Palm Springs and California. if he wants to come along, happy, do happy to have them. to be clear, I paid my own way, like everything was on my dime. after that trip, and those meetings, I just like, like I was, I was now moving towards like, I could see a clear path how to do this.

I was very fortunate, obviously, to have someone that could kind of take me under his wing, and really show me  like, how did Do deals properly, how to structure deals, how to find them, how to raise capital, how to talk to investors, how to conduct yourself in a meeting, how to tour a property. I mean, I'd be in a board meeting and I'd asked a question. After the meeting, I and he would basically like to say, look, if you're gonna ask a question, ask a question.

if you already know the answer to it, don't ask the question. what I mean, like it was just like, it was like, very direct, but I tell you, like, that is the best way to learn. And, and, and I owe a lot of my business acumen like,  for me, to that,  those meetings and conversations, and it's not like he ever said, Hey, I will mentor you. He basically said, here's an opportunity.

It's up to you, right, and I ended up leaving sunlife. I went full tilt. I started working with him on his commercial real estate team where we actually helped other people buy and sell commercial real estate. my focus was really on the syndication.

That's how I started and happy to talk about some of the deals or some of the people that we've helped or Anything I mean?

Taylor   10:00  

Yeah, yeah, I definitely want to get into the details as to why,  commercial real estate is a good fit for busy professionals to invest. I mean, you mentioned syndications. I don't know if  I know you have mentoring,  clients or students. Why do you find it's a good opportunity for them? Because not everybody, not all high professional, high paid professionals are out there looking to leave their jobs and go get a new job as a real estate investor, they want to pay to replace that income. Let's get into that a little bit and how you work with your clients. you know what? deals really are making sense?

Shane Melanson  10:39  

Sure. Well, um, I'll tell you about Dan, who. He's a physician here in Calgary, and he came to me a couple years back, and he had invested in residential real estate right, went to a real estate seminar and went out bought an up down duplex, and on paper, it was supposed to generate x amount and and really when you start to look at the fine print on a lot of residential deals, like most of the returns are baked in on appreciation and mortgage pay down.

Yeah, very little on cash flow. Right. When Dan and I sat down, I said, Okay, so you want to replace me. Let's just pick up 250,000 a year, and you're getting if the stars align 200 bucks a month on this property, that means you're managing it, no vacancy, no repairs, and maintenance, right? All of which are probably going to happen. as soon as it happens once your cash flow for the year gets wiped out.

Now, this is just in Calgary. I know that there's other markets where you can buy properties for much less down and whatnot. I'm just describing the scenario that we were in. He said, Yeah, like, I've got a second job and I don't want a second job.

That's why I invested. I work my ass off at my clinic.

So I said, Okay, well, look, here are some of the opportunities for you, right? You have to first figure out Where he wants to get to what he's comfortable with. He was not interested in value add, right? He's too busy. He just wanted a core asset that was gonna pay him predictably every month. Yeah. he had a lot of money in the market. He basically took some of that money out. we went out and found him a retail property.

strip retail grocery anchored. Home Depot, very close by like, this is like a, this is like a power center. it just happened that this was a piece that was carved off because the main developer just didn't want this, you know that some of the parcels that would carve off, sell off to smaller individual developers.

This developer bought it, built it and then his goal was he just basically gets in and out. he, he was prepared to sell it off market, meaning it wasn't officially listed. I got tapped on the shoulder. I went to Dan and I said, Look, here's the opportunity. fast forward, it took about four months, and I'm not going to say that was a smooth deal. Like I don't, I think most people when they get into real estate, especially commercial deals, always have not always but they generally have some bumps along the way.

this was no different. But that's why having that kind of clear focus and knowing that it was, it was something that he really wanted to do. He wanted to be the principal in the deal, right? He did not syndicate it, and he didn't go out and raise any equity.

He just needed someone to kind of Shepherd them along the way, and introduce them to the right lender or the right property manager or the right lawyer. that deal now kicks off about 6500 a month. His mortgage goes down 7000 bucks a month. Is he retiring? No. But now he's in a situation where when it is paid off, he'll generate about 295 to 300,000 a year assuming his rent stays flat.

it was he's very happy and now he's looking for other properties. because he knows that they're bigger deals, he's probably looking at raising equity. syndicating deals from, from his group, his network.

Taylor   14:03  

That's great. I mean, if you spend enough time in the syndication space, you're gonna run into doctors who bought a few properties on their own.

they had colleagues tapping them on the shoulder saying, Hey, can I get in on that? And that's it. Yeah, it happens all the time. But for this particular situation, I'd like to dig into why he didn't want to do value addition and just buy like a cash flowing asset. And,  what would a value add require, particularly in,  like a retail strip center type of situation? Well,

Shane Melanson  14:34  

yeah. We kind of sat down, and he was kind of quick to realize his strengths and weaknesses. if you've never bought a retail property and industrial property, the leasing is much different. Right.

If you don't understand commercial leases, I mean, in this on his property, they were, I think there were 5560 page leases, right. if he was to go out and say Find a property that had 20% vacancy needed significant capex needed put in like a leasing plan.

I mean, there's just more work and more energy and potentially more risk. He was just looking at it saying, I'm getting x in the market, I can get, essentially like 7% yield over here. I'm paying down my mortgage, another 7%.

I've got rental bumps with 4% lifts in two and a half years. and I've got an exit because this is a core asset like this I mean, if this goes to market, there's going to be multiple offers. for all those reasons, he had liquidity, he had cash flow that aligned for him, right. If you're a syndicator it's harder to find it's harder to buy those kinds of cash flowing assets and justify your existence in the deal.

right for me, that would never work. I got to grow. I develop right . I'm literally two miles from him. I've got a retail development that I bought the land, found an anchor tenant to gasps In a quick service QSR and, and then we've got another 8000 feet that we're leasing up right now. Well, that's a three year deal. My partner and I, we've got personal guarantees.

Like it's just it's just a different level of risk. But obviously the reward is much higher, right? So just but he's not gonna go out and do a development on his first deal or a big value add right? I mean, it'd be I would never push him into that because it'd be setting him up for potential failure.

Taylor   16:33  

Yeah, and it doesn't, it doesn't fit his particular goals anyway to build that passive income. I think something is very notable in that is just the difference in cash flow that he's earning on a commercial piece of property compared to a single family or even an array of single families are so much more management intensive and maintenance intensive and just generally cash flow less, I think, really and in all my markets,  prices have gone up pretty much everywhere and all the decent markets. it makes a lot of sense to go with a retail center.

Shane Melanson  17:08  

Well, I mean, retail just happened to work for him, right. I mean, other clients will say multifamily, I'm more comfortable with maybe I want to do a multi Bay industrial, but you hit on something that I think I kind of glossed over. that is, when he had his residential house, he was the one that was managing, he had a property manager, they did a horrible job.

he end up going burning through a couple, and then he's just like, I mean, it's easier for him to just manage it than to try to find someone and hope that they do a good job for 200 bucks a month. Now as property manager is, it's baked into the lease, right? So they're making a couple thousand bucks to manage this property.

However, it's the tenants paying not him. He's able to afford like a qualite. I mean, that's what a triple net lease provides. Right? There'll be a property manager provision in there. That's all they do. in say two to three hours a month, so it's not completely passive, but it's, it's pretty residual. I mean, he can be in Maui and on a phone and say, send me the reports and what's going on with the property. And, and you have property managers that are fighting for these properties.

it's just that that's probably one of the things that maybe some outside investors wouldn't be aware of in commercial real estate is just that, that real opportunity for professional managers.

Taylor   18:31  

Now, yeah, professional managers. Absolutely. Something that strikes me as you're talking here is that the tenant base is completely different. I mean, in a single family or even multifamily. I mean, you're dealing with people in their home. Whereas retail, you're dealing with a commercial tenant, you're dealing with a company, it's just not the same type of interaction with your tenant, right, compared to renting out residential property. Yeah,

Shane Melanson  18:56  

I mean, these are 10 year deals and 10 year leases, personally. guarantees significant covenant. Some of them are national or regional tenants, meaning they've got multiple locations,  decent balance sheets, so it's all Yeah, it's a, you're just dealing with a different level of sophistication.

Now, the flip side is that people need to be aware of this when a retail tenant or an Office tenant or an industrial tenant goes down. You might be vacant for six months and you've got costs associated with backfilling it. Right. You've got leasing commissions, maybe tenant improvements.

there's, I mean, there's no, you mean, if there's just it was like the perfect investment, then everyone would do it. But there's, I think it's good to just kind of show that it's not that there's two sides to the coin.

Taylor   19:47  

Absolutely. I'd also like to touch on any other clients like that, that aren't a client of yours, that aren't investing in retail, maybe they're going Self Storage, multifamily, anything like that and really address some of those stories. their experiences too. we're getting diverse. A couple of examples. Here, folks, you're helping in this.

Shane Melanson  20:07  

Yeah, yeah. Well, um, so one client, I helped buy a multifamily in Houston and Dallas. this was at a pretty good time we went, we went down into the US in about 2009. while the reason I'll kind of bring this story up is, I believe with what's going on in the world today, that there's going to be, I mean, there's already fear, right.

generally when there's fear and uncertainty, people will pull back and you just don't see the same velocity of deals. in oh nine. Being in Canada, we weren't. Maybe we were naive. We just didn't, we just didn't feel the same pain that was going on in the US.

The banks never tightened up. I mean, that there was a dip for a little bit, but it bounced back very quickly. Whereas in the US, I mean, I was making connections on LinkedIn, with top commercial brokers and flying in, they'd never, they didn't know me from it from Adam, whatever the phrase is, and, and they took us seriously because they still needed to move these properties. I can tell you that those three deals, I mean, I won't get into the details, but it was like they tripled their money on some of these properties.

it was because there they were, they were like, able to act. They knew exactly what they wanted. And,  and essentially, we just developed those relationships at a good time.

here's, here's, I guess one thing that maybe some people won't

maybe necessarily know if you're out if you're on the outside, commercial real estate is very different than residential. getting a relationship with a broker to take you seriously if you have no track record is not easy, right? I mean, either you will leverage like, Someone else, right? A mentor, a coach, a lawyer or someone that you have a relationship with to get that introduction. Or when the market turns like it is right now. The reality is, you might actually get a phone call back.

But, but what I would say is that once you do your first deal, and this is exactly what I told Dan, this is exactly what I told Zack and Nico and Carlene and all the people that I'm dealing with, is that as soon as you do your first deal, you're real.

You're a player, you're in the game, and all of a sudden, because that sale now is going to show up on costar and real net and all the different places. any broker that deals in those asset classes is going to now say, Oh, look at this. Who's this dang guy? He just bought a $5 million property and I don't know him. I'm gonna cold call them and now the tables are turned.

Right now you got a broker calling you saying, hey, I've got another retail property in close proximity. Would you have a look at it? One of the mistakes I see is, someone goes out and buys a property, they get on the radar, they run out of capital, they can pull the trigger for three more years. it's like you,  when you're when you're in demand, you can't take advantage of it. That's kind of one of the things that I talked about in terms of raising capital and being prepared for your next deal. Because that's exactly what happened in the US.

But the first deal, boom, we saw 20 more, and had  hindsight being what it is, we should have bought everything, but we bought 750 units. we did okay, but not not enough.

Taylor   23:39  

Well,  you'd rather be on the side of the equation where Hey, we should have bought more than Hey, we bought too many. fair enough. You're on the right side of that.

Good point. Yeah.  you mentioned syndication a couple of times and we've talked about syndication and I show before, but I also I'd like to really get into how many of your clients are busy professionals. Yeah, are also doing  syndication on the side.

I mean I'm, I'm a busy professional but I do syndication in my free time and I know many other people that do. But is that am I in a bubble? Is that common? What's your experience?

Shane Melanson  24:15  

 Here's the thing, I think. I wrote a book called club syndications. Right. and the premise behind that was I think syndications today are like, especially what I see in the US is, is more mass market because you guys have the JOBS Act and you can you can attract investors that way.

Yeah, I believe there's those types of opportunities in Canada, but it's just not the way that I have raised capital. It's usually like, like a club, like, like you mentioned earlier, the doctor, right? He goes out and buys property. Six of his colleagues say, Hey, can I come in in your next deal? And essentially, now he's got to figure out how do i do Do this, I'm finding the deal. I'm signing the mortgage, I gotta get paid for doing all this.

they kind of morph into it. But I think, yeah, you're starting to see people that are wanting to get into the business of investing in real estate. Right? When you're just doing it on your own. You're generally investing for legacy and long term preservation.

When you're in the business, you're generating fees and revenue. yeah, I'm, I mean, look, I'm dealing with some professionals right now that are a little bit nervous. They had a pretty consistent income in the past that just got cut in half or by 70% in some cases, and they're saying,  what, how do I do this shame, like, like, You, You make it sound easy, but I can't connect all the dots.

How do I structure it? How do I find the deal? How do I like, you know what I mean? And so, for me, I don't think it's complicated, but that's because I've been doing it for a while. if I've tried to do their business. I'm sure I'd be overwhelmed as well with 100 questions.

Taylor   26:05  

Yeah, yeah. You're if you had to go operate on somebody or something to take that exam. Yeah. Yeah. Not. That might not work out. Well, but that's a great point. I mean, we, when what's that saying that when the tide goes out, you see who's swimming naked. And,  when the tide goes out, economically, we see who only has one stream of income. it's a big concern. in the last recession, some people made a lot of moves to generate more streams of income, and now they're better off for it.

Shane Melanson  26:39  

That's right. That's right. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, well, trust me, I've had my, I've had my wins and my losses. and I can tell you, like there's only one guy that I've ever heard say that he's never lost money.

investing in real estate. Everyone else that I've dealt with, has felt pain. That pain is usually what helps them avoid those kinds of mistakes because I tell you, I've structured deals wrong. I've raised money at too expensive a rate I bought in a down market.

Now that you know they've worked out, but personally, I have lost in deals. when you experience those, you realize very quickly that you gotta figure out the right way to do it.

Taylor   27:32  

That you do. Yeah, no, I've had some rough situations. If anybody that's listening is curious. Ask me and I will send you the podcast episode number or the link where we discuss it. I won't discuss it here, but it's been discussed on the show. Right now. We're going to take a quick break for our sponsor. Jane, I've got three questions. I asked every guest on the show. Are you ready? Let's do it. Great. I was kind of afraid you were going to answer these ahead of time with what you're saying? So I think we'll dig a little deeper here. Yeah, sure. First question, what is the best investment you've ever made? Other than in your education? Other than in my education, other than not your education? Okay, um, we just assumed that was the best investment.

Shane Melanson  28:16  

Yeah, a best investment, I would say, my mountain bike. Just the amount of fun that I've had going out into the mountains with my brother, my brother in law. I was actually in Peru, and we were going to do the Inca Trail. the day before we rented mountain bikes, this is going back 10 years or maybe more. If you asked me about that trip, and most people would talk about the Inca Trail, I talked about the day of mountain biking because I had so much fun.

I literally came back when I bought a rocky mountain altitude. literally last week I sold it because I'm planning to get a new one. yeah, that that That's, that was my best investment and I actually got my money back on it. I lost money, but I didn't.

Taylor   29:06  

Okay, you know what? I like that very much. I've been to Peru. I loved the Inca trail for a little bit. That was great. I would not go mountain biking there, though. Wouldn't want to see there the inside of

Shane Melanson  29:16  

It was crazy. It was crazy. Yeah, I won't even I won't even tell you.

Taylor   29:20  

I love it. On the other side of that we had the best investment. Now what is the worst investment you've ever made?

Shane Melanson  29:29  

Um, well, the land I bought in Costa Rica was definitely the worst investment I ever made. I bought it emotionally. I was so eager to get my cash out because I had made a couple of big wins.

That's one of the things I see with people that have significant cash either just sitting there and it's like, they feel like it's,  they're losing, right because I yeah, that's meant and that was the sense that I had. I can tell you now, I've, I'm far more patient, it's okay to sit on cash. You don't need to make rash decisions. That was a horrible decision on my part.

I still own the land. But

Taylor   30:14  

So what made it a bad investment? Did it collapse in value or like,

Shane Melanson  30:21  

so I bought the land with the intention of building a house and being able to rent it out. Right? This was what was sold to me. I did not understand and I didn't know at the time that you couldn't even get to the land. It was unserviced Ah, it was falsely represented, and the developers in lawsuits and all the rest of it.

But that doesn't help me. You know what I mean? It's really, like if you take responsibility for your investments at the end of the day, it was on me. I screwed up now. Sure, I can point the finger and some of the guys that I think are in jail because they did represent.

But had I just taken a trip down? I would have quickly seen. There's no way unhealthy listings are ever getting built. But I didn't. I was way too emotional. it sounded cool when you're 28 to say you got land in Costa Rica, right near a surf town.

Taylor   31:20  

That is cool. I won't lie. That is pretty cool. My favorite question here at the end of the show is what is the most important lesson that you've learned in business and investing?

Shane Melanson  31:33  

That's a really good question. The most important lesson that I've learned in business and investing, I would say the lesson that I take into my deals is I was out for a coffee with a gentleman.

My father in law invited me to this guy's. I mean, if you googled him, he's probably like the, I don't wanna say Donald Trump, but he's like the main guy like Sam Zell. In Canada, he runs a whole $30 billion company. He just made a comment. He said, to me, he's like, look, I think the phrase is, pigs get fat hogs get slaughtered. The idea behind that is, like, Don't be greedy.

If you can make money, like you're never going to go broke making money on a deal. I've really thought about that. Because sometimes I've held on to properties too long past their life cycle. because I was holding out, I was trying to squeeze an extra nickel or you know what I mean,   politically speaking, but But today, I take a much different approach. I don't try to extract everything out of the deal.

If I can leave something in there for the next person. Fine. You know what I mean? I don't, I'm not looking at it as I do for me when he has to lose that. I know that there are some investors that are very successful that take that approach so It's not for me. 

Taylor   33:01  

wow, that's,

that's a good lesson. That's a great lesson. I love it. Thank you for everything you've taught us today. if folks want to get in touch with you, if they want to learn more, they want to get some coaching mentoring, where can they get in touch with you?

Shane Melanson  33:14  

Probably the best place is just my website, shanemelanson.com. There's links to my podcast and book and all that kind of stuff. Yeah, that's the easiest way.

Taylor   33:25  

Thank you for joining us today. Once again, I really appreciate it. Great lessons to everybody out there. thank you for tuning in for everybody that tuned in to the Facebook livestream. Thank you for watching, really appreciate you joining us and enjoying the lessons with us today.

If you're enjoying the show, please leave us a rating and review on Apple podcasts. It's very much appreciated. It helps other people learn about the show. If you know anyone who could use a little bit more passive wealth in their lives. Please share the show with them and bring them into the tribe. Thanks for tuning in once again. Hope you have a great rest of the day and a great week and we'll talk to you on the next episode. Bye bye